Hot search keywords

Hot search keywords

Why I Am Still Not Voting for Segwit? An open letter from Jiangzhuoer

Note:Translated from Jiang Zhuo’er’s original post in Chinese.
Recently, as the discussion around activating Segwit on Litecoin becomes more and more intense, many people have been asking me why my Litecoin pool is not voting for Segwit. I feel the need to address the whole Segwit issue with the following thoughts of mine.
1. The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.
Ever since Core jumped on the complexity and lack of public understanding of AsicBoost as a way to muddy the waters of debate, the new talking point of “miners oppose Segwit for their own personal profits” has become more commonplace. But if miners oppose Segwit because it harms their profits, why would these miners sign the Hong Kong agreement?
According to the Hong Kong agreement, as long as Core had included the code for a block size increase to 2MB, all of the signing miners have already agreed to activate Segwit before the block size is increased. Why didn’t the miners oppose Segwit then, and why were they willing to agree to activate it first? Could it be that Core opposes the Hong Kong agreement?
To reiterate, the “big blockers” have never been against Segwit, but only against Segwit without a block size increase. Restricted base blocksize = killing main chain capacity = killing Bitcoin. Along with the decreasing block reward, Satoshi Nakamoto designed a mechanism for transaction fees to ensure that mining could persist well into the future. If the block size is not increased, then miners will not have enough transaction fee income and we will be stuck with a $100 billion Bitcoin network secured by a $1 billion Bitcoin mining industry. An attacker would have to spend a relatively trivial amount of money to attack the asymmetrically valuable Bitcoin economy.
Had Core simply included the code for a future block size increase, or even stated clearly in their roadmap a plan to achieve bigger blocks, then we could have avoided these several years of infighting, we would still have a united community and industry, and Bitcoin would still be moving forward. But since the very beginning Core has been unwilling to do this. Their inability and unwillingness to offer a solution that can satisfy the Bitcoin community is, to me, incomprehensible.
2. The result of our hard work on Litecoin: The LTC Roundtable.
While the cryptocurrency community’s attention was focused on the Bitcoin scaling debate, a mysterious new Litecoin developer, shaolinfry, appeared on the scene. Shaolinfry appears to be deeply familiar with Segwit, and in a short amount of time helped the rest of the LTC development team to finish writing their Segwit implementation. Once he had secured the title of “Litecoin developer,” he switched his focus to Bitcoin, proposing the “user activated soft fork” (UASF). After launching his campaign for UASF on Bitcoin, he did the same for Litecoin and piggybacked on the reputation of Charlie Lee to push for the UASF there, too.
I don’t want to guess at the true identity of shaolinfry, but it is very clear that the dispute among Bitcoin developers has spilled over into other cryptocurrencies. This has caused me to start thinking even more deeply about the question: How can a decentralized digital currency resolve development conflicts?
The answer is simple: community consensus. But what exactly is community consensus? Fortunately the Litecoin community is very small, and it didn’t take much time to find a solution: invite all of the main businesses who have something to do with Litecoin, including miners, mining pools, and exchanges to join an impartial industry group, the LTC Roundtable. The members of this group have agreed to defer personal decisions on how to upgrade the protocol to the decisions agreed to by this body through community voting.
Here I must extend profound gratitude to the Chinese Litecoin community’s PZ. PZ invited one Professor Chen from Wuhan University to design the structure and voting mechanisms of the Roundtable, and to act as liaison for all involved parties. Getting people to agree to defer to community decision making, rather than their own personal preference, is never easy, but after three months of hard work PZ succeeded in coordinating the Chinese Litecoin industry members to agree to join this group.
3. The development and stagnation of the Roundtable.
A meeting like this with only businesses and no developers would not be meaningful. But in the course of inviting people to attend, we encountered some difficulty. Because Litecoin does not have very many real use cases, the participating businesses are mostly miners and mining pools. Asking the developers to defer to the collective decision making of the Roundtable definitely gave the developers some misgivings. The mutual distrust between the two sides caused the progress of the organization to come to a standstill.
Because communication was happening, the community did manage to clear up some other current conflicts: discussing the “fire the miners” rhetoric, Charlie Lee promised that unless the network is under 51% attack, he will not consider changing the proof-of-work algorithm. After extending an invitation, Charlie Lee has agreed to travel to China in June to discuss Segwit implementation with the members of the Roundtable.
4. The market drives changes
Changes to the market happen faster than we can anticipate, and as Bitcoin’s scaling debate has been stuck in a deadlock, more and more capital is bypassing Bitcoin completely and flowing to competing cryptocurrencies. DASH, ETH, XEM, XMR, PIVX, ETC, ZEC, XRP have all seen massive growth in the last few months. Unsurprisingly, on March 30th Litecoin also began a dramatic rise.
Following the rapid increase in price, mining pools have faced pressure from Litecoin users and miners alike: Why aren’t you supporting Segwit? As far as most of these people are concerned, “let’s all come to an agreement and prevent conflict” is a distant second to the argument, “Hurry up and activate Segwit so the price will go up!” Two days later, F2Pool began signalling Segwit support.
On April 4th, Charlie Lee published a statement promising that if Litecoin blocks begin to fill up, the developers will support a hard fork to increase the block size limit, removing barriers from both sides of the argument supporting these changes. I deeply wish that Bitcoin Core would make a similar statement, or write code to this effect. Doing so would allow both sides to come to an agreement and put an end to years of debate. I still cannot understand why Core is unwilling to do this.
5. More and more attacks
On April 10th, OKCoin and Huobi both finished the process of joining the LTC Roundtable, but Charlie Lee had already begun actively promoting the use of the UASF on Litecoin. If activated, UASF will have very unfortunate ramifications for whichever currency it is used on. Mining and proof-of-work are the established ways of coming to consensus in a decentralized currency, but the UASF has gone through no similar community consensus. Instead it is a way for developers to act as dictators and decide on the activation of features based on their own personal preferences. It has nothing to do with the users, and should be called “DASF” — developer activated soft fork.
Another negative effect of the DASF is that the “users” are defined by developer preference. It becomes trivial to say those who support the developers are users, and those who disagree with the developers are not users of this currency. If you support Segwit, you are a user. But if you prefer increasing the block size, then you don’t count as a user. If this becomes the case, all that is necessary to control Bitcoin (or any other currency) is to simply hold influence over the development team.
On April 11th, another terrible thing happened. The pools not yet supporting Segwit (Antpool, LTC1BTC, and BW) all suffered DDoS attacks. After sustaining an entire night’s DDoS attack, the next day BW began voting for Segwit. This left me astonished. If Segwit is successfully activated on Litecoin through the use of coercion and attacks, then Litecoin will forever be a pillar of disgrace, making protocol decisions through PoD (proof of DDoS).
On April 14th, F2Pool’s Wang Chun, who was already voting for Segwit, posted a message saying “Segwit will be a disaster. I am not going to support it on BTC because I am a bitcoin HODLER.” Within hours, F2Pool was the target of more DDoS attacks. Wang Chun then posted a Twitter poll asking if he should start voting for Segwit on both Litecoin and Bitcoin at the same time.

0-OKNcmsH0UxMFoLri-

Having explained the above points, I can tell you why I am still not voting for Segwit.
Although I have my reservations about Segwit (I am a Litecoin HODLER), if it is the most widely accepted path forward then I am not opposed to it. But I am firmly opposed to the tactics being used by Segwit supporters, namely UASF (DASF) and proof-of-DDoS, to push for its activation. If the supporters of these tactics are validated by seeing them succeed on Litecoin, then both Bitcoin and Litecoin become vulnerable systems prone to criminal manipulation.
Because of this, I am adding sufficient hashrate to my pool to ensure the following:

1.Guaranteeing that Segwit does not activate by proof-of-DDoS.
2.That the Litecoin community will wait until Charlie Lee’s visit to China to make this decision together.

Finally, I want to explain that LTC1BTC decided to mine several Segwit blocks as a test and a show of positive intentions. Some have claimed that we are messing with Segwit voting to manipulate the market. Please do not misread these actions.

 

Translated by: Jiang Shan

COMMENTS(218)

  • BitcoinAllBot
    8 months ago BitcoinAllBot

    Here is the link to the original comment thread. Or you can comment here to start a discussion. Author: 8btccom

  • JordyCA
    8 months ago JordyCA

    Sounds like they are willing to talk it out with Charlie. Good news for sure. Charlie is level headed and will hopfully sort it out for the betterment of Ltc.

  • -Sledgehammer-
    8 months ago -Sledgehammer-

    I DON’T CARE!

  • rezzme
    8 months ago rezzme

    Can we stop with the letters and just run software or not?

  • Al-m
    8 months ago Al-m

    So from the miners perspective:
    1: No UASF. Don’t even mention it
    2: Keep promise of increasing block size when the blocks start filling up
    3: Talk to each other
    => you get the miners vote

    We will see what happens in june…

  • xpatri
    8 months ago xpatri

    This letter illustrates more red flags people seem to ignore about Core.
    The kinds of behaviour Core supporters exhibit
    certainly indicates they have intentions even darker than mere threats.
    In a word, the best descriptor for those who support Core is

    Authoritarianism

  • tackInTheChat
    8 months ago tackInTheChat

    Ah yes, the round table. So what are the possible downsides to a segwit+blocksize increase like they mention, instead of just segwit? I’m getting lost with everyone pointing in opposite directions.

  • bigbombo
    8 months ago bigbombo

    Nothing but a Delay tactic. Meeting conveniently scheduled for the UASF flag date.

  • HolyBits
    8 months ago HolyBits

    Wow, “Developer activated….”, “Proof of DDOS”.

  • Adrian-X
    8 months ago Adrian-X

    Can peopel stop pushing the Authoritarian software rules changes.

    And calling the software to upgrade and remove the 1MB soft fork limit a Coup.

  • fman916
    8 months ago fman916

    its worth a try to actually talk it out, some valid points were risen, and the attitude deff needs to change, a lot of aggression from both sides. And we seen the flexing from the “other side”, wasn’t too pleasing. Most people trying to get rich are pissed rather than showing concern for what really is healthy for the future of this ecosystem. Hoping for the best.

  • taxed4ever
    8 months ago taxed4ever

    The Bitcoin Core team, Gavin in general, had been sabotaged. Whether people would like to accept this or not, it is the reality of the situation. Greg Maxwell and Adam Back have a long history of this behaviour and it is why I advocate they have nothing to do with Bitcoin development. As for Bitcoin Core itself, there are too many problems surrounding this development team that even if they produced software that is brought into the market, it comes with a high degree of risk that will never safely be recoginized. I have publicly urged other members of Bitcoin Core for many months to fire the ones causing problems, to revolt and take matters into their own hands, even if a contract is signed – there are ways to get out of it, especially under these circumstances

  • eumartinez20
    8 months ago eumartinez20

    I think fhe 2MB HF they want on top of Segwit will still allow them to use AsicBoost, do you guys agree?

    Wow, also LTC1BTC said they mined Segwit blocks as a sign of support?? Wasnt it Antpool mining 3 segwit signalling blocks? Are they the same pool???

    The DASF allegation is totally retarded. Developers have nothing to do with this. The users want a d will get Segwit, miners are so scared of UASF as they will lose all the power they now have.

    I love the part where it says we can secure a 100billion network only getting paid 1 billion! You want more money?

    I dont know what you guys think, but sounds like the miners need to be replaced by new ones…

    EDIT: Billion not Million

  • zipzo
    8 months ago zipzo

    Sounds like a lot of meaningless bullshit.

  • squarepush3r
    8 months ago squarepush3r

    spot on.

  • ESgoldfinger
    8 months ago ESgoldfinger

    You’re wasting your time

  • deeltje
    8 months ago deeltje

    Meanwhile ‘his’ asics are being shut down ready to be shipped to the real customers. We all know these are Jihan’s asics not Jiang’s, even more so; these are Jihan’s customers asics, not Jihan’s nor Jiang’s.

    Segwit above 70% already

  • litecoiners
    8 months ago litecoiners

    6 Reasons https://twitter.com/BlueDavid/status/854924041433620481

  • coinx-ltc
    8 months ago coinx-ltc

    I am afraid that this is true. He didn’t gave a single valid argument against segwit. Still he is against it.

  • tophernator
    8 months ago tophernator

    and just run software or not?

    Well, not if people are DDoSing the software they don’t like.

  • 181Dutchy
    8 months ago 181Dutchy

    He did raise some valid points, but holds Litecoin ransom all the same.

  • dontcensormebro2
    8 months ago dontcensormebro2

    An attacker would have to spend a relatively trivial amount of money to attack the asymmetrically valuable Bitcoin economy.

    This is an important point.

    Stupid analogy that came to mind…

    We could make the analogy of the bitcoin network as a trapezoid with the smaller parallel side (representing on chain economy) on the bottom and the larger parallel side (representing the off chain economy) on the top resting on a table.

    If we allow too much value to develop on top (side getting longer) relative to the bottom, the structure would become unstable and could topple. It is only by having a strong base relative to off chain that you maintain a strong structure that will not topple.

  • thederpill
    8 months ago thederpill

    I read it that they might be happy with 2meg + segwit. Better than Twitter wars..

  • thederpill
    8 months ago thederpill

    This is promising temporarily using customers mining equipment seems like a desperate move.

  • jstefanop
    8 months ago jstefanop

    No they want Charlie to come kneel at their roundtable and have Litecoin’s creator under their control, expanding their power and influence even more.

    We must activate segwit at all costs before this meeting.

  • dontcensormebro2
    8 months ago dontcensormebro2

    I wish more miners would come forward and speak their mind like this.

  • ForkiusMaximus
    8 months ago ForkiusMaximus

    This guy gets it.

    Instead [UASF] is a way for developers to act as dictators and decide on the activation of features based on their own personal preferences. It has nothing to do with the users, and should be called “DASF” — developer activated soft fork.
    Another negative effect of the DASF is that the “users” are defined by developer preference. It becomes trivial to say those who support the developers are users, and those who disagree with the developers are not users of this currency. If you support Segwit, you are a user. But if you prefer increasing the block size, then you don’t count as a user. If this becomes the case, all that is necessary to control Bitcoin (or any other currency) is to simply hold influence over the development team.

  • Shock_The_Stream
    8 months ago Shock_The_Stream

    A true hero. Shame on you BW Fool and F2Fool. Cowards of the [bitcoin] county.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8zz3CfUBto

    On April 11th, another terrible thing happened. The pools not yet supporting Segwit (Antpool, LTC1BTC, and BW) all suffered DDoS attacks. After sustaining an entire night’s DDoS attack, the next day BW began voting for Segwit. This left me astonished. If Segwit is successfully activated on Litecoin through the use of coercion and attacks, then Litecoin will forever be a pillar of disgrace, making protocol decisions through PoD (proof of DDoS).
    On April 14th, F2Pool’s Wang Chun, who was already voting for Segwit, posted a message saying “Segwit will be a disaster. I am not going to support it on BTC because I am a bitcoin HODLER.” Within hours, F2Pool was the target of more DDoS attacks. Wang Chun then posted a Twitter poll asking if he should start voting for Segwit on both Litecoin and Bitcoin at the same time.

    Having explained the above points, I can tell you why I am still not voting for Segwit.
    Although I have my reservations about Segwit (I am a Litecoin HODLER), if it is the most widely accepted path forward then I am not opposed to it. But I am firmly opposed to the tactics being used by Segwit supporters, namely UASF (DASF) and proof-of-DDoS, to push for its activation. If the supporters of these tactics are validated by seeing them succeed on Litecoin, then both Bitcoin and Litecoin become vulnerable systems prone to criminal manipulation.
    Because of this, I am adding sufficient hashrate to my pool to ensure the following:

    1.Guaranteeing that Segwit does not activate by proof-of-DDoS.
    2.That the Litecoin community will wait until Charlie Lee’s visit to China to make this decision together.

  • Amichateur
    8 months ago Amichateur

    this is so full of false facts that I have difficulties to believe they are all out of lack of knowledge. in paragraph 1 alone about every second sentence is wrong. It rather seems to be another propaganda piece. disgusting.

  • miningmad
    8 months ago miningmad

    Sounds like they want to stall until June, so that LTC can’t use BIP148 UASF in time to create a possible precident for BTC. More shitty delay tactics.

  • miningmad
    8 months ago miningmad

    Nah… it’s more like “let us dick you around for 2 months, then maybe we’ll talk about it.”

  • miningmad
    8 months ago miningmad

    They don’t care about blocksize increase on LTC so long as Charlie and others remain open to the idea. They just want to delay. Might want to re-read if that’s what you read.

    As for BTC, of course they support 2MB+segwit hardfork at the same time, because you could implement segwit as a hard-fork without breaking covert ASICBoost.

  • miningmad
    8 months ago miningmad

    And then the next batch of pre-ordered equipment will be turned on for “testing.”

  • Oetzi4
    8 months ago Oetzi4

    No valid arguments there, so lets crush them. UASF as soon as possible. We should have discussed the nuclear option more often, then they would happily embrace a UASF.

  • Totscha
    8 months ago Totscha

    He more or less admitted it has everything to do with Bitcoin politics and nothing to do with Litecoin. Since he said Charlie’s willingness to increase block size should it be necessary down the line is all the miners want…

  • 181Dutchy
    8 months ago 181Dutchy

    Who said it was core supporters? It may well be a false flag. But yes he raises very valid points. I hope this gets the ball rolling.

  • fatjohn1408
    8 months ago fatjohn1408

    Segwit has been at 75% again for the last 100 blocks. There is still more then half to go. Needed segwit signalling for remainder of period is about 78,15%.

  • 181Dutchy
    8 months ago 181Dutchy

    I think you should give Charlie more credibility and let him act like a CEO and sit down with his partners.

  • jonny1000
    8 months ago jonny1000

    The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.

    This position is ridiculous. SegWit is a blocksize increase. Anyway ransoming a feature you and the community wants, to get a feature Litecoin does not need is ridiculous and unethical.

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    Changes to the market happen faster than we can anticipate, and as > > > Bitcoin’s scaling debate has been stuck in a deadlock, more and more > > capital is bypassing Bitcoin completely and flowing to competing > > > > > > cryptocurrencies. DASH, ETH, XEM, XMR, PIVX, ETC, ZEC, XRP have all > seen massive growth in the last few months. Unsurprisingly, on March > > > 30th Litecoin also began a dramatic rise.

    And what was trigger ? lower price vs HIGHER DEVELOPMENT PROGRESS 😀 ? Here solution is simple take segwit then fork 2Mb 4MB when needed… but no BTC miner want stalmate and asic boost so MARKET WILL FIRE them and ETH now earn same $$$ as BTC miners. Keep guys that play of stagnation longer for sure more $$$ will flow to BTC instead of alts.

    If you hate “core” so much then pay own developers multimillion $$$ for soft progress and stop whining like little babies. No is to lat so take segwit and fund good devs to fork segwit into higher blocksize.

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    yea and proof of market when BTU when 1:10 vs Core… Miner are moron they should get segwit and later for it to 2MB on their own with like 75% hash power simple. But not…. lest loos some $$$ for alts 😀

  • hl5460
    8 months ago hl5460

    Note:Translated from Jiang Zhuo’er’s original post in Chinese.Recently, as the discussion around activating Segwit on Litecoin becomes more and more intense, many people have been asking me why my Litecoin pool is not voting for Segwit. I feel the need to address the whole Segwit issue with the following thoughts of mine.1. The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.2. The result of our hard work on Litecoin: The LTC Roundtable.3. The development and stagnation of the Roundtable.4. The market drives changes5. More and more attackshttp://news.8btc.com/why-i-am-still-not-voting-for-segwit-an-open-letter-from-jiangzhuoer

  • Kakmakr
    8 months ago Kakmakr

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin. 

  • hl5460
    8 months ago hl5460

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 05:42:21 AM

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin. 

    nobody cares about SegWit on a random altcoin that nobody uses apart from trading them.litecoin is different, because 1. it is exact copy of bitcoin with little change 2. it is old and it is being used.and FYI SegWit is on some other altcoins, a couple of them have even activated SegWit.if you are interested, these coins are:- Groestlcoin – Viacoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1840789.0- SysCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1466445.0- a couple more that are signalling or considering that i forgot!

    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    Let’s do 2MB HF first, that will show core/BS are willing to compromise.

  • Herbert2020
    8 months ago Herbert2020

    Quote from: Amph on Today at 05:48:23 AM
    …is it? where? i don’t remember litecoin being used as a currency like bitcoin,
    as a currency: yeslike bitcoin: no.where: https://www.google.com/search?q=spend+litecoinmore specifically: https://litecoin.com/services#merchants (check other categories on the left side too).Quote from: Amph on Today at 05:48:23 AM
    it’s the same shitty coin as before, equal to the other alt that are activating segwit, for instance vertcoin is also on track with segwith, and vertcoin is another big coinpeople are just blindly attached to litecoin that’s why they think it deserve more attention even now wiht segwit, which is only to increase the hype and do a random pump
    i am not hyping litecoin (unlike many these days) i don’t think it can change that much about litecoin even with SegWit.but i wouldn’t call it a shitcoin either. it is the oldest altcoin with one of the biggest communities and it has lots of similarities to bitcoin and that is why i said it is different on litecoin than other altcoins.Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 05:46:11 AM
    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?
    not sure exactly. but since SegWit is about malleability fix on top of other things, i suppose the altcoin has to be following the same transaction structure and the same signature.

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    Thing are slowly moving forward, few month ago no miner spoke and none signal any preferences.

    That might indicate possible solutions will be find maybe..

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    okay but we will have to wait to lose more 30% market dominance to get there but if you wish okay

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    And what was trigger ? lower price vs HIGHER DEVELOPMENT PROGRESS 😀 ? Here solution is simple take segwit then fork 2Mb 4MB when needed… but no BTC miner want stalmate and asic boost so MARKET WILL FIRE them and ETH now earn same $$$ as BTC miners. Keep guys that play of stagnation longer for sure more $$$ will flow to BTC instead of alts.

    Why not 2MB HF first?

    If core/BS show they are willing to compromise they might get more money ner on their side.

    If you hate “core” so much then pay own developers multimillion $$$ for soft progress and stop whining like little babies. No is to lat so take segwit and fund good devs to fork segwit into higher blocksize.

    Extended block is a non-core solution to the problem if I am not wrong.

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    Wel’ I guess it is a first step.

  • Quantus
    8 months ago Quantus

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin.  

    Thats actually really smart, that could work. I don’t see any other good ideas.

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    I bet that when ETH miners will earn 2x-3x more $$$ from mining than BTC miners will rethink strategy today they earn 1:1 in USD probably they will activate segwit and from extra $$$ they will fund OWN DEV team with funding like 100m$ if they are smart. If not then ETH will eat BTC for sure overtime and market will decide.

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    Extended block is a non-core solution to the problem if I am not wrong.

    Then why no one give a shit to it ? Asicboost ?

  • dinofelis
    8 months ago dinofelis

    Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 05:46:11 AM
    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?

    That the alt coin contains the same bugs as bitcoin that need to be fixed

  • SDCrypto
    8 months ago SDCrypto

    Very good article. Recommended reading.

  • AngryDwarf
    8 months ago AngryDwarf

    Quote from: Sadlife on Today at 09:29:29 AM
    I dont see any problem to it besides this solution eliminates bitcoin scaling and malleability then maybe this solution may fix some of litecoins problem.Litecoin just happened to be an exact copy of Bitcoin that’s why segwit is being implemented to it.

    I disagree, it’s not a long term elimination to these issues at all, only a part fix.Transactions are native keys are still malleable. Only transactions on segwit keys on non-malleable = partial fix, not elimination.The scaling requires the use of segwit transactions (and still has a limit) = partial fix, not elimination.In the case of LN, people will still only want spending money in an LN channel, not risk there savings. So more on-chain capacity will be required for it to be effective, so people can move money between ‘savings’ accounts and ‘current’ accounts for the want of an analogy.

  • STFTrophycase
    8 months ago STFTrophycase

    Implying that miners aren’t constantly DDoSing each other. Funny.

  • gentlemand
    8 months ago gentlemand

    So now know Litecoin’s activation has nothing to do with, er, Litecoin, and everything to do with Bitcoin. What a worm.

  • Herbert2020
    8 months ago Herbert2020

    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

  • Herbert2020
    8 months ago Herbert2020

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin. 

    nobody cares about SegWit on a random altcoin that nobody uses apart from trading them.litecoin is different, because 1. it is exact copy of bitcoin with little change 2. it is old and it is being used.and FYI SegWit is on some other altcoins, a couple of them have even activated SegWit.if you are interested, these coins are:- Groestlcoin – Viacoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1840789.0- SysCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1466445.0- a couple more that are signalling or considering that i forgot!

  • bitsko
    8 months ago bitsko

    I give a shit to it. I dont give a shit to asicboost.

  • omgosaurus
    8 months ago omgosaurus

    They want to talk with Charlie, face to face. I think we can grant them that without flaming them again. no?

    This community looks more and more childish, When come someone with a serious reflection and business manner, you flame them for bullshit? The segwit solution you wish so much its right there. STFU and HTFU.

  • Amph
    8 months ago Amph

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 05:42:21 AM

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin.  

    nobody cares about SegWit on a random altcoin that nobody uses apart from trading them.litecoin is different, because 1. it is exact copy of bitcoin with little change 2. it is old and it is being used.and FYI SegWit is on some other altcoins, a couple of them have even activated SegWit.if you are interested, these coins are:- Groestlcoin – Viacoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1840789.0- SysCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1466445.0- a couple more that are signalling or considering that i forgot!

    is it? where? i don’t remember litecoin being used as a currency like bitcoin, it’s the same shitty coin as before, equal to the other alt that are activating segwit, for instance vertcoin is also on track with segwith, and vertcoin is another big coinpeople are just blindly attached to litecoin that’s why they think it deserve more attention even now wiht segwit, which is only to increase the hype and do a random pumpQuote from: hl5460 on Today at 05:46:11 AM
    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?

    signaling for a whole period of the diff retarget if i’m not mistaken, just reaching the threshold % activation won’t cut it

  • NorrisK
    8 months ago NorrisK

    Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 05:46:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 05:42:21 AM

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin. 

    nobody cares about SegWit on a random altcoin that nobody uses apart from trading them.litecoin is different, because 1. it is exact copy of bitcoin with little change 2. it is old and it is being used.and FYI SegWit is on some other altcoins, a couple of them have even activated SegWit.if you are interested, these coins are:- Groestlcoin – Viacoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1840789.0- SysCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1466445.0- a couple more that are signalling or considering that i forgot!

    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?

    I think most altcoins can simply push segwit as an update. The communities are very small so it will generally be accepted pretty easily. The only barrier is a dev that can code segwit if their coin is not a direct copy of a coin that already has a working version of segwit.

  • nanuk8
    8 months ago nanuk8

    To play devil’s advocate here, pushing for SegWit on Litecoin to begin with has more to do with Bitcoin than it does with Litecoin as far as I can tell. Charlie Lee himself has said he’s pushing for it so Litecoin can be used as a testing platform for Bitcoin.

    And there are simpler ways, technically, to fix malleability. There are also simpler ways to increase the block size limit (for example, increasing the block size limit ;)). So if SegWit is being pushed for in Litecoin, it can be argued that it’s for Bitcoin-politics reason and not for technical merit in Litecoin.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 04:45:02 AM
    1. The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.
    This has zero relevance to activating Segwit on LTC.Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 04:45:02 AM
    2. The result of our hard work on Litecoin: The LTC Roundtable.
    Not a reason to not vote for Segwit.Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 04:45:02 AM
    3. The development and stagnation of the Roundtable.
    It is the same as above.Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 04:45:02 AM
    4. The market drives changes
    No. The same people that are spreading FUD about Segwit and FUD about 51% attacking the network are the same ones pumping those scam coins.Quote
    Unsurprisingly, on March 30th Litecoin also began a dramatic rise.
    This is only due to the Segwit signalling.Quote
    5. More and more attackshttp://news.8btc.com/why-i-am-still-not-voting-for-segwit-an-open-letter-from-jiangzhuoer

    Quote
    If activated, UASF will have very unfortunate ramifications for whichever currency it is used on.
    This is a complete lie. UASF only has unfortunate ramifications for malicious actors.Tl;dr: This guy has zero real reasons (technology wise) to not support Segwit. The only reason for which he doesn’t is politics, which effectively makes him a baboon and a mere pawn in this game.

  • jeanduluoz
    8 months ago jeanduluoz

    Thus is becoming another fractional reserve conversation, whether bitcoiners know it or not.

  • Sadlife
    8 months ago Sadlife

    I dont see any problem to it besides this solution eliminates bitcoin scaling and malleability then maybe this solution may fix some of litecoins problem.Litecoin just happened to be an exact copy of Bitcoin that’s why segwit is being implemented to it.

  • Rawlsdeep
    8 months ago Rawlsdeep

    What would be their incentive to do so other than to just be assholes and deny others blocks (because they wouldn’t get any more blocks anyways)? I would be rather surprised if this is happening on any real scale.

  • Capt_Roger_Murdock
    8 months ago Capt_Roger_Murdock

    Not a stupid analogy at all. Here’s how I express same idea:

    The fundamental problem is that when you move transactions to a layer-two network, you have, by definition, added an additional layer of risk. And that risk increases the more the base layer is artificially constrained. (The smaller your base, the more precarious the structures built on top of it.) There will always be a natural balance between the full security (but greater expense) of Bitcoin proper (i.e., actual “on-chain” transactions) vs. the reduced security (but reduced expense) of Bitcoin substitutes. The problem with an arbitrary limit on Bitcoin’s base capacity is that it distorts that balance. Related thoughts here and here.

  • AngryDwarf
    8 months ago AngryDwarf

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 09:06:43 AM

    Quote
    If activated, UASF will have very unfortunate ramifications for whichever currency it is used on.
    This is a complete lie. UASF only has unfortunate ramifications for malicious actors.

    Have you ever considered what will happen in the event of a UASF? Without miner majority, those implementing the UASF are the malicious actors. It’s a charge of the light brigade moment in this situation.

  • Capt_Roger_Murdock
    8 months ago Capt_Roger_Murdock

    Absolutely. It makes me crazy how many people don’t seem to get this and say absurd things like: “We should keep the Bitcoin main chain ‘small’ and thus ‘secure’ and ‘decentralized’ while scaling to allow thousands of transactions per second via ‘second-layer solutions’.” It is magical thinking.

  • biebiep
    8 months ago biebiep

    The best part about this is the twitter accounts involved in this can easily be screenshotted to validate everyone’s point.

    This was basically just a game by three parties to shake every small holders weak pockets.

  • Leithm
    8 months ago Leithm

    Excellent post

  • HanC0190
    8 months ago HanC0190

    I think Charlie promised, in his open letter, he would work with miners to increase blocksize, should blocks become full. If this guy does not believe that, then there is nothing we can do.

  • Malotru
    8 months ago Malotru

    His logic is nuts and it’s all delaying tactics.

    “I’m not against segwit and only want bigger blocks”

    “You can have bigger blocks if required”

    “Oh, I’m not going to signal anyway just because, errrrrr ummm you threatened us with UASF, even though if we signalled it won’t be necessary”

    He even stated they signalled to show good faith, when it was Antpool who signalled. Fuck me get your story straight at least

  • letsbfree
    8 months ago letsbfree

    Wow this guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
    SegWit IS a blocksize increase!

  • Rrdro
    8 months ago Rrdro

    You don’t understand how BTC-u works. It’s not a 1 to 1 correlation.

  • Malotru
    8 months ago Malotru

    This letter is a cover in case there is any blow back on using customers asics

  • Malotru
    8 months ago Malotru

    And what makes them partners? They secure the network and are rewarded for that, the delusion here is thinking that miners control the protocol..

  • RedShiz
    8 months ago RedShiz

    Miners control the vote for segwit. Yet they are effectively stealing the votes from the people that purchased the mining equipment. If they believe in the idea that the miners should vote, they should not manipulate the system like that.

  • dr45454ge
    8 months ago dr45454ge

    It’s not bullshit. They have a point, they signed agreement for segwit and blocksize increase. But increase was abandoned in favor of just segwit. This isnt what miners signed for.

    I believe Charlie should have a proper discussion and see if everyone can agree to the original signed agreement of SW+Blocksize increase

  • RedShiz
    8 months ago RedShiz

    These are not Johan’s asics. These are the asics that are destined to customers that could potentially be voting for segwit. They are stealing votes.

  • dr45454ge
    8 months ago dr45454ge

    Agree with this. Can Charlie and miners please have civil discussion and make way forward for both parties. Onchain and offchain scaling should be both allowed.

  • Sukarti
    8 months ago Sukarti

    The miners are simply stalling so they can protect their interests (ASICBOOST) in BTC. This is nothing more than that. Jihan will ship this batch and use the profits to generate more ASICs for internal use guaranteeing he can block segwit indefinitely OR attack a UASF segwit fork.

    Both Jihan and Wang have been playing games to make money, this recent string of events is no different.

    • 1bitcoineater
      8 months ago 1bitcoineater

      I know we all suspect ASICBOOST in play, but this is not confirmed by any means. But lets assume it is true, he can still block it while activating it for Litecoin.

      Once again, can we not by default assume they are bad actors. Heck people only want segwit for the pump with no care for holders or long term of Litecoin.

      When you say they are playing games to make money, are you saying via trading?

      • Sukarti
        8 months ago Sukarti

        Yes which they have openly admitted to.

        ASICBOOST is an immense financial incentive, don’t kid yourself, it’s in use.

        Jihan also benefits by suppressing segwit which in turn suppresses LTC price and innovation as he’s currently the producer of the most efficient scrypt ASIC. The longer he can suppress price, the larger share of scrypt hashing he can maintain and further monopolize the LTC market.

    • Totscha
      8 months ago Totscha

      This!

      The BU effort has stalled in the last month. And this has made the BTC miners nervous since they’re not likely to get their big blocks this way. Attacking the SW effort on LTC is their response.

  • bitnord
    8 months ago bitnord

    Very nice post. Charlie is like small child,and many supporters here.. All of us want Segwit and it will happen but not by DDOS attacks to miners and personally insulting them.

  • haroldtimmings
    8 months ago haroldtimmings

    This whole mess is the fault of the disgusting Bitcoin developers Gmaxwell, lukejr (let’s reduce the blocksize), back, Todd, theymos & blockstream. Litecoin didn’t need to step into the vomit pit alongside as Charles lee has promised to raise the blocksize if/when needed via hardfork this is literally world apart from lukejr litecoin attacker’s plan to reduce bitcoins blcksize. Who is shaolinfry? it had better not be Gmaxwell as he is a cancerous influence. Litecoin doesnt have full blocks so segwit activation should have been a breeze why did Charles le have to step into the Bitcoin dev vomit pit and keep re-tweeting Samson moe , the mind bogles

  • haroldtimmings
    8 months ago haroldtimmings

    This won’t be understood around these part as most litecoiners are completely and utterly drunk on blockstream koolaid and theymos propaganda. I recon when we find out who shaolinfry is he will be an employee of blockstream.

  • dr45454ge
    8 months ago dr45454ge

    They are partners. The protocol is Open source so anyone can make changes to it.

  • TexasPickEm
    8 months ago TexasPickEm

    when is the meeting?

  • ctrlbreak
    8 months ago ctrlbreak

    I don’t give a flying fuck about “Chinese culture” respective to this topic.

    They really fucking do. I want segwit. We all want segwit! It doesnt get any more simple than this.

    You’re right. And 2 fucking people don’t get to decide for the entire user base.

  • ctrlbreak
    8 months ago ctrlbreak

    And what makes them partners?

    You didn’t answer this question… just restated your opinion? Why is Malotru not a ‘partner’? Why am I not?

  • Jakeith
    8 months ago Jakeith

    well, as we all wish that were the case…but it isn’t. whether we like it or not, respect should be given to the people who hold the keys to our gates.

  • GeorgeOnee
    8 months ago GeorgeOnee

    Wow, I think you are not only reditor for 16 days, but in BTC and LTC too… “Miners want segwit” – lol they do not want it NOW, because they still make big profits from ASICBOOST. I have no doubt that sooner or later they will agree on segwit but not now! Especially when NOW they can manipulate the market prices so much. They are making millions and its not just a friendship issue, its money for them – and freedom for users. Maybe your post would fit better about the Bitcoin dev but not about Coblee, he tried nice with them until they trolled us on the last period. So please go read some more books about “How to win friends and influence people” but do not talk about segwit situation beeing in it just for 16 days.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    There is no proof or evidence in what you are saying. Once again, this is conspiracy/speculation. Can you confirm or point to any evidence at all that ASICBOOST is applicable with scrypt miners?

    Did you read the open letter from ltc.top on what Coblee did?

    How long I have been on reddit is irrelevant to my points. How about we stick with talking about the actual ideas/points instead of falling for the appeal to authority fallacy.

    Edit: I don’t mind if you downvote me (30 seconds after I submitted this), I will upvote you. We don’t have to agree to have a discussion.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    Can you show where they openly admitted to it? ASICBOOST might be in use for Bitcoin, but does not work the same with scrypt afaik.

  • GeorgeOnee
    8 months ago GeorgeOnee

    How you can prove it is not???

    I can prove you one thing, sit down and read reddit and twitter posts and all stories for about last 4 weeks when its all started with LTC. You will understand that when LTC started with segwit for miners like Jihan and few others was no point to block segwit just because of relationship with Coblee because they were good, he was always tolerant. So why they blocked it from the begining? Because they could not let it happen as BTC would be following it with bigger support. And if you believe what says chinese people not usa or europe people, then you have no clue about their culture my friend.

  • Nikandro
    8 months ago Nikandro

    This doesn’t make sense. If they wanted SegWit right now, they would signal for SegWit right now. It’s that simple.

  • belcher_
    8 months ago belcher_

    This is bullshit, the miner’s fragile feelings shouldn’t be used to stop segwit when we know that segwit hope already raised litecoin’s price by x5.

    If miners want segwit (as you tell us in all-caps), then they should signal for it.

    UASF isn’t a threat and miners shouldn’t see it like this, it’s simply how cryptocurrencies work on a technical level.

    Sorry to be blunt but there’s a lot of real money at stake here. Many litecoin holders simply don’t care about the miner’s “saving face” or “having their feeling’s hurt”. Miners should do their freaking job, or get another one.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    So are you saying guilty until prove innocent?

    Read the open letter from Ltc.top for their story on Coblee and uasf + Bitcoin.

    This isn’t about believing in Chinese or “usa or europe people”, its about evidence. I want minimal speculation and conspiracy and more facts and evidence.

  • HanC0190
    8 months ago HanC0190

    I know your opinion will probably be not popular, but I think we should welcome all voices here. We are not r/bitcoin, or r/btc.

    • 1bitcoineater
      8 months ago 1bitcoineater

      I obviously have no problem with that. I do think though the priority should be benefits to Litecoiners over Bitcoiners.

  • belcher_
    8 months ago belcher_

    Charlie was doing his best for litecoin. We already saw how even the hope of segwit pushed the price up x5.

    The big miners started interfering with technical matters because they want to keep their unfair patented ASICBOOST advantage.

  • GeorgeOnee
    8 months ago GeorgeOnee

    I dont see any evindence in that letter. I read more than you, believe me.

  • Jakeith
    8 months ago Jakeith

    and…suprise! in comes one of the first reasonably logical posts in /r/litecoin and the people would still rather cling onto their tinfoil hatted beliefs. 🙂

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    ETH have 14% inflation while BTC 4% so we divide market caps of both: BTC/ETH 19.8/4.5= 4.4 now you divide inflation 14%/4%= 3.5
    (so in theory to keep price ETH needs NEW (3.5/4.4)=0,8$ and BTC needs 1$ to keep same price by buying all mined coins)
    Okay BTC:ETH ratio is 1:.0,8 in cash flow in $$$ I hope you got it.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    I honestly don’t care if you do read more than me or if you’ve been here longer than me. I care only about the arguments itself.

  • Sukarti
    8 months ago Sukarti

    Openly admitted to manipulating/shorting the market via twitter/posts.

    No open admittance to ASICBOOST but you don’t spend development money implementing something in a chip and then NOT deploy it. Let’s not be naive.

  • tl121
    8 months ago tl121

    Here’s a possible scenario for Litecoin:

    Miners are blackmailed into supporting Segwit becuase of DDoS
    Segwit activates
    Users load funds into Segwit addresses
    Miners decide to retaliate and undo Segwit
    Miners steal (or burn) funds loaded into Segwit addresses.
    Developers of Segwit are utterly discredited.

  • GeorgeOnee
    8 months ago GeorgeOnee

    Me too, and for a long time reading and absorbing situation I look only into the arguments. I actually even do not troll or hate those miners, I even respect them from the businessmen perspective, because they control the situation pretty well and make tons of money, but from the community perspective, to make LTC or BTC even better, make better future avoiding fiat and ect, they suck very much. Also I would respect them more if they just tell the real truth behind blocking and admit it. But they just too scared to do this.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    It’s difficult to posts these things as by default it challenges the echo chamber and people downvote immediately. People love seeing good guys vs bad guys type things.

  • tomothybitcoin
    8 months ago tomothybitcoin

    Thanks for your post. I appreciate your sentiment. I was excited about the possibility of Segwit activating on LTC. To that end I moved some hashpower to a pool that supported my position. When Bitmain announced the new L3+s, I bought more and plan on continuing to do same. HOWEVER, when it looked like Segwit/LTC may have trouble activating and then the ltc community went insane with UASF I’ve taken a step back. I’m greatly concerned over this insane behavior. LTC exists BECAUSE of MINERS. And I can’t/don’t view UASF anything but a direct threat and attack on myself and other miners. You want a voice? Start mining. But to arbitrarily change how consensus works? That’s not the litecoin I signed up for.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    Exactly. People are failing to understand miners are part of the picture. I am not a miner myself but it is easier for “holders” to sell out and move on than miners.

  • Josephson247
    8 months ago Josephson247

    We will UASF before the meeting 🙂

  • Jakeith
    8 months ago Jakeith

    i have a feeling no one in this community even knows what USAF actually is/does/how it works. all they hear is, “segwit will happen with usaf!”

    • rad1000i
      8 months ago rad1000i

      Thanks.

  • BitsenBytes
    8 months ago BitsenBytes

    As other have said, a very good and thoughtful post. Very much worth the time to read…

  • Josephson247
    8 months ago Josephson247

    We are not going to wait 2 months for a meeting.

  • Rrdro
    8 months ago Rrdro

    We are talking about BTC-u not ether.

  • SoCo_cpp
    8 months ago SoCo_cpp

    a mysterious new Litecoin developer, shaolinfry, appeared on the scene. Shaolinfry appears to be deeply familiar with Segwit, and in a short amount of time helped the rest of the LTC development team to finish writing their Segwit implementation. Once he had secured the title of “Litecoin developer,” he switched his focus to Bitcoin, proposing the “user activated soft fork” (UASF). After launching his campaign for UASF on Bitcoin, he did the same for Litecoin and piggybacked on the reputation of Charlie Lee to push for the UASF there, too.

  • Sukarti
    8 months ago Sukarti

    Agreed. It’s all smoke, mirrors, and BS.

  • blkblade
    8 months ago blkblade

    Bullshit. It should have been announced well in advance that test blocks were being mined. If no manipulation then why did the market start rising before the signal happened, and started to dump before the next non-signal block was mined? But you guys saw this as an opportunity to make a quick 10% hence the lack of any communication with the community about this signaling. And Wang Chun says Charlie has problems communicating… #UASF.

    • Jakeith
      8 months ago Jakeith

      cuz isis

    • 1bitcoineater
      8 months ago 1bitcoineater

      The open letter was posted hours in advance. I even re-posted it. You can’t stop traders trading. How is it bullshit? This community is so toxic. The addiction to conspiracy theories, hate train, speculation. Just stop.

      • blkblade
        8 months ago blkblade

        The article itself is good, but it doesn’t explain or change what someone commented:

        “i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%”

        There’s nothing noble going on here. They don’t want UASF, and we don’t a single entity having so much power over the coin. That should be the agreement and nothing more.

        • monogratis
          8 months ago monogratis

          Maybe there are some cultural differences how things are done in China. Having tea and dumplings together might be how powerful people form agreements.

      • Sugartits31
        8 months ago Sugartits31

        I think people are annoyed that Segwit looked very strong in this activation period, but now it’s clear that the sudden uptick in non-Segwit mining hash rate has put a stop to that, even if temporarily.

        I sympathise, and Segwit enables some really cool technology, in theory, but I do agree this sub has gone off the rails a bit. There is a Bi-Polar attitude between “Yay Segwit!” and “UASF NOW! MINERS SUCK!”.

        We are only in activation period 6, there is plenty of time yet, and Litecoin is much much closer to activation than Bitcoin is.

        The community needs to take a step back, take a deep breath, and just hurry up and wait patiently in my opinion. Yes, I also want Segwit sooner rather than later, but shouting and screaming about it in this fashion is counter productive.

        Bitcoin and Litecoin are both awesome technologies in the meantime, which I continue to enjoy using regularly.

      • CaptainOuzo
        8 months ago CaptainOuzo

        Not everybody is very good at being diplomatic, especially on the internet where we can all hide behind relative anonymity. And cryptos do seem to attract the conspiracy theorist and prepper types. I wouldn’t let it make you too cynical.

    • zcashcowboy
      8 months ago zcashcowboy

      He posted the letter like 3+ hours before. If people are stupid and trade on nonsense that’s their problem.

  • minerl8r
    8 months ago minerl8r

    The longer segwit runs, the higher the incentive to attack it.

  • Malotru
    8 months ago Malotru

    By that logic everyone is a partner.

  • tomothybitcoin
    8 months ago tomothybitcoin

    I fear you are right. I guess it’s good that there is new support and excitement but it’s important to understand what you are supporting…

  • Rawlsdeep
    8 months ago Rawlsdeep

    I really like the slow movement, even though it can be tedious. I feel that no decisions are being made in a knee jerk way, and that makes me even more comfortable that the right solution will be implemented.

    Bitcoin is growing up, I love watching it!

  • ctrlbreak
    8 months ago ctrlbreak

    What kind of logic is that? Someone is holding you hostage but ‘respect should be given to the people who hold the keys’ ? Does this sound like a trustless cryptocurrency to you?

  • ctrlbreak
    8 months ago ctrlbreak

    You can’t possibly be serious. 1 or 2 people are holding the entire currency hostage… and I was here well before any of this drama. You can get fucked.

  • Jakeith
    8 months ago Jakeith

    no one is holding you hostage. it was your decision to hop on the boat. now someone has the ability to add interstellar travel. you gonna keep poking ’em with your sticks or try and work with them?

  • Adrian-X
    8 months ago Adrian-X

    apparently the software used to propagate a DDoS attack is a legitimate tools to force the hash rate to move to pools that support software changes people would otherwise avoid.

    u/HolyBits called it:

    Wow, “Developer activated….”, “Proof of DDOS”.

  • autofocus111
    8 months ago autofocus111

    LTC Roundtable Meeting?
    Developers/Users: we want segwit
    Miners: we want assurance of big blocks if needed
    Proposal: Activate segwit now. Activate blocksize increase when blocks are running at 75% full.
    Decision: Agreed. Champagne corks go popping

    What am I missing here?

  • Adrian-X
    8 months ago Adrian-X

    Whatever it takes to get bitcoin to succeed

  • skypigr
    8 months ago skypigr

    These guys really need to sit down and talk peacefully right now. No more conspiracy and no more FUD.

  • ChicoBitcoinJoe
    8 months ago ChicoBitcoinJoe

    They would get more blocks because if another Miner gets knocked off the difficulty won’t increase as much.

  • BitBankRoller
    8 months ago BitBankRoller

    The DDOS attacks were not part of the decision making process for BW. The Litecoin community is not as divided regarding Segwit, in fact there is wide support for it. There are many moving parts to this issue, alot of unforeseen events took place, BW made the plan and followed through. This decision was based on the discussions with our customers, the LTC community, developers and our engineers and came to the conclusion this was the best way to contribute to the growth of LTC.

  • Rawlsdeep
    8 months ago Rawlsdeep

    They would have to sustain an attack for a very long time for it to really make any difference. It would also have to be one of the big miners to really make any difference.

  • ESgoldfinger
    8 months ago ESgoldfinger

    ahahah good spirit

  • arturomusic
    8 months ago arturomusic

    There is a phrase in Spanish that says, “there is no more blind, than the one who does not want to see” this phrase applies perfectly for this blog. Jiang Zhuoer’s letter is a further part of the market manipulation, it is so obvious that in order to finish it he had to write “Some have claimed that we are messing with Segwit voting to manipulate the market. Please do not misread these actions.”

    None of his arguments are valid for Litecoin, when I read it seems that he was wrong and this letter was for Bitcoin developers.

    As Charlie Lee said, miners block Segwit for other reasons.

    We could talk about technical issues to demonstrate that there is no valid argument for the blockade, we can talk about financial aspects and there are no valid arguments for the blockade. Please understand that these are not conspiracy theories, here we are not talking about who killed JFK, we are talking about something very real, and that something is called money.

    Initially when we talked about Segwit activation in Litecoin the price increased. At that moment the miners saw the acceptance that Segwit has in Litecoin community and thought that the next step would be Bitcoin. This is where the blockade for external reasons to Litecoin began. But here they also had a very important opportunity, “win millions with market manipulation” The intention of the miners is to block Segwit at any cost, meanwhile can play with users. Here is where we can see: Segwit activation tweets or hash power – long position / Segwit blocking tweets or hash power – short position

    Here is a very important fact, Litecoin’s price was on the rise, and a tweet from Wang Chun on April 6 collapsed the market. This is where anyone with experience in trading could see market manipulation.

    The activation of Segwit is something that is going to happen in both Litecoin and Bitcoin, and the miners can not stop it. UASF.

    The miners can not kidnap the Litecoin evolution, and use it against the community, for their economic benefit.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 09:44:56 AM
    Have you ever considered what will happen in the event of a UASF? Without miner majority, those implementing the UASF are the malicious actors. It’s a charge of the light brigade moment in this situation.
    The amount of hashrate is really non-important. If practically every business and all exchanges support UASF, miners must join that chain or be left mining useless coins. You need to re-think the whole proposal out of the r/btc propaganda and re-think the incentives that it creates.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:05:08 AM
    and here is lauda soo much deeper in the blockstream should own and control everything. that if a community say no to a half baked feature, then instead of re-thinking the half baked feature to re-do it in a way thats fully cooked with all the toppings including. he wants to treat anyone saying no as malicious.
    Wrong. If anything, Segwit has a supermajority of support in all three fields: users, developers, economy. You can continue to attempt spreading false information, but as long as certain individuals are around it won’t work. Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:05:08 AM
    learn consensuslearn decentralised diversity
    Ironically, you don’t know either.

  • sanket1729
    8 months ago sanket1729

    This attack is true for all SF’s and nothing in particular related to DDoS or Litecoin. That would be 51% attack which miners can do even today.

    The thing which prevents it that community can and should PoW HF.

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 10:37:02 AM
    Wrong. If anything, Segwit has a supermajority of support in all three fields: users, developers, economy. You can continue to attempt spreading false information, but as long as certain individuals are around it won’t work.

    your the kind of guy that would think that being vegetarian is the only way to eat because daddy vegan only feeds you veg and you only visit veg stores.get out and explore the world realise that there is more then just the Monsanto carrots on offer and that the world should not be owned by monsanto veg stores”super majority” 31% of blocks…

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM
    BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins

    ^ this guy now wants blockstream(core) to not only control bitcoin but other alts too..seriously.. i think Kakmakr doesnt understand decentralised diversityQuote from: Lauda on Today at 09:06:43 AM

    Quote
    If activated, UASF will have very unfortunate ramifications for whichever currency it is used on.
    This is a complete lie. UASF only has unfortunate ramifications for malicious actors.Tl;dr: This guy has zero real reasons (technology wise) to not support Segwit. The only reason for which he doesn’t is politics, which effectively makes him a baboon and a mere pawn in this game.

    and here is lauda soo much deeper in the blockstream should own and control everything. that if a community say no to a half baked feature, then instead of re-thinking the half baked feature to re-do it in a way thats fully cooked with all the toppings including. he wants to treat anyone saying no as malicious.seriously guyslearn consensuslearn decentralised diversitystop being corporate ass kissers and really think about why bitcoin was invented in the first place!

  • Xester
    8 months ago Xester

    Litecoin should not accept segwit. Litecoin has operated well over the years without any flaws and the number of ltc users are only small thus it does not to adopt segwit at its current condition. Possibly if the situation of LTC is like bitcoin then probably they would mind choosing segwit but in their case segwit will not be a necessary upgrade for the LTC system.

  • Jet Cash
    8 months ago Jet Cash

    SegWit and blocksize are two different issues. SegWit offers lots of advantages, and should be activated asap. Bigger blocks turn the Bitcoin delivery van into a lumbering articulated lorry, what is required is a rapid Bitcoin motorcycle delivery service with smaller faster blocks.

  • Egon_1
    8 months ago Egon_1

    Follow the traces: who is shaolinfry?

    Helping Litecoin SegWit and to get out their coma
    Proposiong UASF for Bitcoin to kick out miners (Bitfury nothing to say?)
    Proposing UASF for Litecoin to create a moment

    These are no coincidental events .

  • AngryDwarf
    8 months ago AngryDwarf

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 10:37:02 AM

    Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 09:44:56 AM
    Have you ever considered what will happen in the event of a UASF? Without miner majority, those implementing the UASF are the malicious actors. It’s a charge of the light brigade moment in this situation.
    The amount of hashrate is really non-important. If practically every business and all exchanges support UASF, miners must join that chain or be left mining useless coins. You need to re-think the whole proposal out of the r/btc propaganda and re-think the incentives that it creates.

    The keyword is ‘if’. The exchanges and business that don’t follow the UASF will increase their business. That’s a big incentive for them to follow the majority hash rate. You need to re-think the whole proposal out of the r/bitcoin propaganda and re-think the incentives that it creates.Perhaps you don’t understand the Mutual Assured Destruction that a contentious fork will create.

  • belcher_
    8 months ago belcher_

    There’s nothing insane about UASF, this method of updating was done many times before on bitcoin (most notable, UASF was used for the P2SH update). What’s more UASF was invented by a litecoin developer. Far from an “arbitrary” change of consensus parameters, UASF only happens if the economic majority supports it.

    The point of cryptocurrencies isn’t to give miners something to do, the point of cryptocurrencies is to be a decentralized form of money. Miner’s only job is to set the history of transactions.

    Users have seen how even the possibility of segwit made litecoin jump by 500%. Honest miners should be supporting segwit to make their mined coins more valuable.

  • belcher_
    8 months ago belcher_

    That’s exactly why miners are employees of holders/users.

    Miners have capital locked up in hardware, and must constantly be selling to pay for electricity. This means they are utterly dependent on litecoin’s holders and users.

    Holders have seen how even the possibility of segwit made litecoin jump by 500%, and they want more of those juicy price rises.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 10:47:28 AM
    The keyword is ‘if’. The exchanges and business that don’t follow the UASF will increase their business.
    Inadequate support == no UASF. It’s as simple as that.Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 10:47:28 AM
    That’s a big incentive for them to follow the majority hash rate.
    No. FYI there were flag day soft forks in the past too.Quote
    You need to re-think the whole proposal out of the r/bitcoin propaganda and re-think the incentives that it creates.Perhaps you don’t understand the Mutual Assured Destruction that a contentious fork will create.
    Cut out the bullshit and stop supporting hashrate attacks on the network, which is essentially what BU BTU is. Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:50:05 AM
    1. try to explain what advantages segwit ACTUALLY offer THE WHOLE NETWORK . i mean GUARANTEED features that are ACTUALLY achieved
    A lot of people are waiting to start using Segwit TXs, that’s your guarantee (partial, not 100% Utopian bullshit that you’re talking about). On the other hand, BTU guaranteed features == none.

  • AngryDwarf
    8 months ago AngryDwarf

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 10:53:47 AM

    Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 10:47:28 AM
    That’s a big incentive for them to follow the majority hash rate.
    No. FYI there were flag day soft forks in the past too.

    Erm, can you explain the point you are trying to make? Was there a big hoohah about it at the time? Who were the actors opposing such a change?I can’t see why anyone would oppose this fix.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:59:51 AM
    “alot” “partial” “not 100%” sounds a bit flimsy
    All three are accurate representations of the reality. Anything else is an outright lie.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:59:51 AM
    also thinking that its only a BU vs debate shows how limited your scope of judgement is.there are more than a dozen implementations.
    Straw man argument.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:59:51 AM
    you use terms that are obvious repeats from the same reddit crowd.
    No.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 10:59:51 AM
    those people are not the people that perform malleation/quadratics anyway. so nothing changes in that respect
    Miners can and will prioritize Segwit transactions in such cases. I have told you this several times, yet you keep misleading others like a true paid hypocrite.Quote from: AngryDwarf on Today at 12:35:44 PM
    I can’t see why anyone would oppose this fix.
    The same goes for Segwit. There is no rational reason to oppose it.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: franky1 on Today at 01:00:56 PM
    you have not even read the codeyou have not read the full documentation
    1) You can’t know what I’ve read or what I haven’t read.2) Your completely intentional or unintentional missunderstanding of Segwit shows that either:   2.1) You haven’t read either one.   2.2) You have read it, but you don’t understand it.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 01:00:56 PM
    one minute you say pools will prioritise segwit transactions yet for the last few weeks you have been crying about how some pools are abstaining or rejecting segwit.68% of pools blocks are rejecting/abstaining segwit. so dont be fooled by the reddit narrative that pools will prioritise segwit.
    One has nothing to do with the other and this has nothing to do with reddit. This is my own conclusion.

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    Yeah, a bit of growing pain indeed!

  • Miz4r_
    8 months ago Miz4r_

    LTC exists because of users, developers and miners. Without users there wouldn’t be any miners and no LTC. And without miners no users of course, but it’s the users who give the coin its value on the market and this in turn gives miners an incentive to mine LTC. Miners are part of the picture but they work for the users, not the other way around. UASF should be the standard in my opinion.

  • PoentaEFormajo
    8 months ago PoentaEFormajo

    where did he posted this message? LTC1BTC doesnt have twitter i think

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 01:09:10 PM
    1) You can’t know what I’ve read or what I haven’t read.2) Your completely intentional or unintentional misunderstanding of Segwit shows that either:   2.1) You haven’t read either one.   2.2) You have read it, but you don’t understand it.

    1. you have admitted you cant read C++, you ave admitted you cant read walls of text2.1. i have quote code, i have quoted documentation. i have even shown examples of simple tweaks that could be considered as something more of the community could unite around2.2 i have actually told you about the emphasis of the key utility and not the activation itself being the important part of segwits half gesture.and all you can do is pleaded ignorant for a couple months then suddenly find a script that admits what have have said, but with subtle word twists.such as how its a ‘opt-in’.but your still not getting the point. its not a network fix. its not a consensus implementation. its a back door half gesture with only if’s buts and maybe’syet the actual network effect is negative (the tier network)atleast get passed the word twisting from your groupy mindset of blockstream adoration.. as thats temporary. just like segwits half baked gestures are temporary..try to think with a critical hat and not a utopian sales pitch hat.your only argument its to literally fail at describing segwit and to also fail at pidgeon holing me. think about bitcoins 120+year and not blockstreams couple year ‘experiment’

  • bonestabone
    8 months ago bonestabone

    Disagree completely, Charlie is the one who made all this happen, he is Chinese and understands the culture very well. The negotiating is also going very well, look how far we’ve gotten, nobody ever thought f2pool would start signaling and that was the “it’s happening” moment that sent the price rocketing up. UASF is just another bargaining chip to pressure the miners, and was in response to Jihan’s ASICBOOST stall tactic. It is the nuclear option, but we have to keep it on the table to pressure the last holdouts.

  • sdczen
    8 months ago sdczen

    He has some valid concerns…for bitcoin. It’s a non-starter for litecoin. Litecoin does not have the same scaling problems as bitcoin (at least for now), as it has 4x the capacity of bitcoin. Add the fact that /u/coblee said he’d hard fork litecoin, if, and when the need arises to increase the block size.

  • cellard
    8 months ago cellard

    Quote from: Amph on Today at 05:48:23 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 05:42:21 AM

    Quote from: Kakmakr on Today at 05:32:11 AM

    Quote from: Herbert2020 on Today at 04:51:24 AM
    i can see why many are disagreeing with SegWit on bitcoin (less than 70% of bitcoin hashrate) and what he says but in my opinion what he did in Litecoin is completely unacceptable because more than 80% of the existing litecoin hashrate of that time accepted SegWit activation on litecoin and then out of nowhere new hashrate was redirected to litecoin to crush the activation and change the balance. – currently at 71%

    The solution for this, will be to implement SegWit on more Alt coins to split the instigators hashing power even more. Some big pools will do anything in their power to stop SegWit, because they know what will happen. If SegWit is activated on a Alt coin and it proves to be successful, many people will start to support it and these pools know that. BTC Core should push for activation on multiple Alt coins that are compatible with it and not just stop with LiteCoin and Bitcoin.  

    nobody cares about SegWit on a random altcoin that nobody uses apart from trading them.litecoin is different, because 1. it is exact copy of bitcoin with little change 2. it is old and it is being used.and FYI SegWit is on some other altcoins, a couple of them have even activated SegWit.if you are interested, these coins are:- Groestlcoin – Viacoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1840789.0- SysCoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1466445.0- a couple more that are signalling or considering that i forgot!

    is it? where? i don’t remember litecoin being used as a currency like bitcoin, it’s the same shitty coin as before, equal to the other alt that are activating segwit, for instance vertcoin is also on track with segwith, and vertcoin is another big coinpeople are just blindly attached to litecoin that’s why they think it deserve more attention even now wiht segwit, which is only to increase the hype and do a random pumpQuote from: hl5460 on Today at 05:46:11 AM
    What is required to implement segwit on altcoin?

    signaling for a whole period of the diff retarget if i’m not mistaken, just reaching the threshold % activation won’t cut it

    You are missing the big picture. Litecoin is different to the rest of coins.1) It’s the longest surviving blockchain (except bitcoin). This makes investors have way more confidence when taking big risks. A coin that could be unlisted from an exchange (like the rest of coins you mentioned) aren’t attractive for the long term. But we all know that LTC will be here for life on the big exchanges.2) It’s basically a bitcoin clone, which is perfect to port code from BTC to LTC. It becomes the ideal way to test segwit in a real scenario. Lightning Network developers will move there, increasing the marketcap several times. We’ll see an all time high on LTC, im not sure when, but we will eventually, that im sure of.

  • Rawlsdeep
    8 months ago Rawlsdeep

    Yep indeed, I think this is a fantastic buying opportunity overall. I am certainly taking advantage of it (not deviating from my plan to DCA $x every pay day).

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Jet Cash on Today at 10:46:33 AM
    SegWit and blocksize are two different issues. SegWit offers lots of advantages, and should be activated asap. Bigger blocks turn the Bitcoin delivery van into a lumbering articulated lorry, what is required is a rapid Bitcoin motorcycle delivery service with smaller faster blocks.

    1. try to explain what advantages segwit ACTUALLY offer THE WHOLE NETWORK . i mean GUARANTEED features that are ACTUALLY achieved

  • tomothybitcoin
    8 months ago tomothybitcoin

    I disagree and we have different opinions. Miners are inherently selfish and work for themselves. When I’m mining, I’m hoping I find the block and get the reward and not someone else. A byproduct of this selfishness is the fact that I secure the digital LTC ledger/blockchain and also facilitate transactions. Users benefit and take advantage of miner greed and can send transactions. Miners work for themselves. Users have no skin in the game and have no cost for participating in the system. Thanks to exchange fiat/virtual currency on ramp, users can take advantage of the current system and exit any time they want. Miners do not have such a luxury and care that the system remains competitive and keeps participants honest. The system itself gives value to itself and it becomes self fulfilling. In the distant future when the block reward is gone, users may play a larger role as miners will at that point become dependent on fees. We are not there yet and as such users should not be allowed to influence undue control of the economic competition.

  • Miz4r_
    8 months ago Miz4r_

    Jihan has ulterior motives and is a piece of shit, I am not going to give respect to someone who mines with his own customers’ hardware to block segwit and spits in the community’s face. We have this decentralized currency here without a central controlling entity and now you say we need to suck up to a few rich people and beg them to signal for Segwit? Fuck that, if we have to do things like this in order to upgrade the protocol I want no part of it. Miners can either activate Segwit and make more money or not and wait for users backed by the economic majority to force them to through UASF. I am fine either way and not in a hurry, but I would definitely refuse to suck up to miners with inflated or fragile egos.

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 10:53:47 AM
    A lot of people are waiting to start using Segwit TXs, that’s your guarantee (partial, not 100% Utopian bullshit that you’re talking about). On the other hand, BTU guaranteed features == none.

    “alot” “partial” “not 100%” sounds a bit flimsyalso thinking that its only a BU vs debate shows how limited your scope of judgement is.there are more than a dozen implementations. you use terms that are obvious repeats from the same reddit crowd.just get yourself out of your cabin fever and tke a look outside of the box at the whole network and not just the glossy images that are in favour of corporate blockstream control.as for the people that are waiting to start using segwit tx’s.those people are not the people that perform malleation/quadratics anyway. so nothing changes in that respectthose that are performing malleation/quadratics are the people that wont use segwit keys. so they will still malleate and quadratic spam the network.meaning no fix

  • 319cap
    8 months ago 319cap

    Traders gona trade….

  • Miz4r_
    8 months ago Miz4r_

    Miners need to sell their coins to the market and profit from higher prices users are willing to pay. Therefore it’s the users who ultimately get to decide what kind of features they want, whether you like it or not. I like it. You don’t want to signal Segwit as a miner? Fine then I no longer am your customer who is willing to buy the coins you mine. It’s that simple. It’s no different to a business that wants to satisfy their customers and give them a good service.

  • soul-impact
    8 months ago soul-impact

    Quote from: hl5460 on Today at 04:45:02 AM
    Note:Translated from Jiang Zhuo’er’s original post in Chinese.Recently, as the discussion around activating Segwit on Litecoin becomes more and more intense, many people have been asking me why my Litecoin pool is not voting for Segwit. I feel the need to address the whole Segwit issue with the following thoughts of mine.1. The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.2. The result of our hard work on Litecoin: The LTC Roundtable.3. The development and stagnation of the Roundtable.4. The market drives changes5. More and more attackshttp://news.8btc.com/why-i-am-still-not-voting-for-segwit-an-open-letter-from-jiangzhuoer

    You should not ask why LTC is easy to accept segwit and bitcoin is not acceptable. Because bitcoin requires a high approval rate (95%), while LTCs only need 75%, an easy rate for a currency that has come a long time ago and needs innovation. So, as soon as LTC made the segwit proposal, it was a lot of people agreeing. In addition, bitcoin does not need a segwit, it is really powerful enough for it to work independently.

  • franky1
    8 months ago franky1

    Quote from: Lauda on Today at 12:50:18 PM
    There is no rational reason to oppose it.

    there isTRY READING THE CODE!!!!!!your opinion is moot.you have not even read the codeyou have not read the full documentationyou have only said “wrong, no, insult, strawman”you have failed to show you fully understand itfor a year now i have gave you many oppertunities to actually spend time learning it all.but your arrogance and devotion to blockstream have blinded youjust read the damned code and documentation in fulleven your own words have debunked your own opinion..one minute you say pools will prioritise segwit transactions yet for the last few weeks you have been crying about how some pools are abstaining or rejecting segwit.68% of pools blocks are rejecting/abstaining segwit. so dont be fooled by the reddit narrative that pools will prioritise segwit.WAKE UP to reality

  • jorneyflair
    8 months ago jorneyflair

    A lot of people are not behind the SegWit right now, which is kind of understandable for me, because they need 95% of approval for that. In my opinion, it will never happen in bitcoin, way too many miners are standing behind Bitcoin Unlimited, which basically makes SegWit impossible to implement.Another important reason, is that im sure there are some miners that do not really care about SegWit or hard-fork either, they just want to stay on current Bitcoin Core without any changes.So I hope that the BTC community will find altogether some solution, unless we really want to see blockchain being blocked by big amount of transactions every day.

  • tomothybitcoin
    8 months ago tomothybitcoin

    You can like it all you want, but that doesn’t mean anything. Based on current consensus mechanism, that’s not how litecoin works. Users can ask for confidential transactions, side chains, to increase block reward, and they can even ask for a slice of apple pie if they want. You don’t always get what you want. You get what, for lack of a better term, the protocol entitles you to. It doesn’t currently provide you segwit, so you don’t get it. Sorry. You can BET and GAMBLE that the protocol may change to adopt and allow segwit in the future, but you don’t get it right now. And not wanting to buy the coins I mine? Then you aren’t buying litecoin, because that’s currently the only thing that’s being offered by the litecoin protocol. Litecoin sans-segwit. If litecoin doesn’t adopt segwit, is it going to die and break? Nope. It’s been chugging along for years. Will price drop? Maybe? However it still works offering seamless transaction and is fast. It has sufficient liquidity to facilitate moving from exchanges. It works. LTC works at $1 and still works at $10. It works. It works because of Miners. Users should say thank you.

  • Lauda
    8 months ago Lauda

    Quote from: jorneyflair on Today at 02:18:01 PM
    A lot of people are not behind the SegWit right now, which is kind of understandable for me, because they need 95% of approval for that.
    Wrong. Pretty much everyone besides a small minority of users, a few corrupt characters (Ver, Hearn, Andersen, Rizun, et. al.) and Jihan are in support of Segwit. Some pools have officially not made up their minds yet though.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:25:59 PM
    1. you have admitted you cant read C++
    I can read C++, I don’t code C++. That’s a major difference. If you familiar with one of the high end languages, it doesn’t take much to understand the syntax of another.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:25:59 PM
    you ave admitted you cant read walls of text
    This is a lie, and yet another example of you posting false information. I’ve said that reading your worthless walls of text is a waste of time.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:25:59 PM
    2.1. i have quote code, i have quoted documentation. i have even shown examples of simple tweaks that could be considered as something more of the community could unite around
    Quoting part != reading everything & understanding.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:25:59 PM
    2.2 i have actually told you about the emphasis of the key utility and not the activation itself being the important part of segwits half gesture.and all you can do is pleaded ignorant for a couple months then suddenly find a script that admits what have have said, but with subtle word twists.such as how its a ‘opt-in’.
    You understand nothing.Quote from: franky1 on Today at 02:25:59 PM
    its a back door half gesture with only if’s buts and maybe’s yet the actual network effect is negative (the tier network)
    This is another lie. I wonder how much $ you get per post.

  • Miz4r_
    8 months ago Miz4r_

    We’ll see, try and stop us from implementing Segwit. We’ll get it one way or another and you ain’t gonna stop it. Sorry but miners do not have the power, the userbase does. And no I’m not going to say thank you, give me a break lol.

  • the_bob
    8 months ago the_bob

    Woah a developer familiar with SegWit! Get the fuck out of here! It must be a conspiracy!

  • tomothybitcoin
    8 months ago tomothybitcoin

    As I think you’ve seen… users don’t implement Segwit, Miners do. And if overall they don’t want it activated, it’s not going to activate. So again, you, as a user, aren’t going to implement Segwit. Miners may decide to activate segwit but that goal certainly isn’t helped by mob mentality screaming for UASF. Take a moment to think about the miner perspective: UASF strips miners of their ability to guide the network after they’ve purchased equipment to participate in the system. It’s like playing a game and half way through the people you’re playing with change the rules. That could result in a contentious split and bad things would happen. It’s best to avoid bad things happening.

  • jstefanop
    8 months ago jstefanop

    There are no conspiracy theories, tin foil hats, or feelings involved. At least not for me, this is an attack on the fundamentals of cryptocurrencies, deregulation, and decentralization.

    Your missing the big picture here, I will NEVER give in or bring these guys to a negotiating table so they think they have the power to control anything.

    The free markets and users dictate the outcomes of crypto, not the top few. If thats what you want go back to Wall St and USD.

  • mshadel
    8 months ago mshadel

    He also says, “The Litecoin community will wait until Charlie Lee’s visit to China to make this decision together.”

    That works for me. But he should understand that if the group decides to oppose segwit at the June meeting, the wider community will either push forward via UASF or abandon Litecoin for being too centralized and manipulated to hold its value.

    • 1bitcoineater
      8 months ago 1bitcoineater

      I think this is fair

  • Ant-n
    8 months ago Ant-n

    Well if you confortable with the level of risk, indeed.

  • CaptainOuzo
    8 months ago CaptainOuzo

    There are some odd statements in that second link.

    The big-block camp has never been opposed to Segwit, but rather they are opposed to Segwit without also increasing the block size.

    SegWit does increase the block size. It creates a serialized block whose size is limited to 1 MB for non-witness data plus however much space the witness data needs. Estimates are that this averages out to about 2 MB blocks.

    the UASF has gone through no similar community consensus. Instead it is a way for developers to act as dictators

    Holy hyperbole. UASF is just another way for end users running validating nodes to select between different proposals. Enforcing the protocol is not the job of miners alone, but of all validating nodes. Hence the name, “validating nodes”. UASF-like mechanisms have been used before, though combined with simple majority (>50%) hash rate requirements as well. For example, the activation of P2SH on bitcoin was done by a UASF, essentially, with a 51% hash rate requirement. Having a simple majority hash rate requirement in there is a good way to temper fears about a bare UASF that disregards hashing power.

  • 1and1make5
    8 months ago 1and1make5

    What does BW think about BIP100?

    BW could change the coinbase message from “BW Support 8M” to the following;

    Voting is done in the coinbase transaction. A BIP100 vote for 8MB looks like this: /BIP100/B8/

    https://bip100.tech

  • NigelClutterbuck
    8 months ago NigelClutterbuck

    One of the main reasons I bought Litecoin was my (incorrect) belief that Charlie, /u/coblee ,had good relationships with the Chinese miners or understood the Chinese culture

    You may be right, but give they guy a break.

  • highintensitycanada
    8 months ago highintensitycanada

    Maybe reason can spread around the censorship and lies

  • highintensitycanada
    8 months ago highintensitycanada

    Why not when Farenheight does something, why BTU, what’s the British thermal unit to do with amything. Perhaps you are easy to minipulate though

  • XbladeXxx
    8 months ago XbladeXxx

    https://www.bitfinex.com/cst_token_terms

    Definitions: In these T+Cs, the following words have the following meanings unless otherwise indicated:

    1.1“BCC” means a CST representing Bitcoin Core;
    1.2“BCU” means a CST representing Bitcoin Unlimited;

  • donpdonp
    8 months ago donpdonp

    5 is only true for SF where ‘anyone can spend’ is an implementation mechaism.

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    To be honest, while he’s the creator and essentially the only hope for Litecoin, he has not done very much for Litecoin in the past few years. No coding, nothing. Comes back and expects to have huge influence in the course of a week.

  • slow_br0
    8 months ago slow_br0

    why dont we just update to a version that activates segwit regardless of the signalng if this period fails? i mean hasnt the real market already spoken out enough pro segwit?! wouldnt this just be a good idea to counter jihan?

  • slow_br0
    8 months ago slow_br0

    you are literally vomiting the standard anti core script from /btc here. I am surprised u forgot to mention AXA.

  • coblee
    8 months ago coblee

    It’s easy to be a backseat driver. Not many people know how much work and effort we’ve put into negotiating with miners/pools to get to where we are today. You really shouldn’t criticize when you only see 1% of what’s happening. You wouldn’t believe the amount of work it took for me to convince them to actually come to the negotiating table. You thought this online meeting was planned Yesterday and that we haven’t talked for all this time?!?

    All you guys see are just results. Our team managed to get signaling from 0% to 70+%, convincing one miner/pool at a time. And constantly fighting FUD from some people. If not for all the work we put into this, SegWit signaling would be at 5% today. So I don’t think you or anyone should be criticizing me or the Litecoin dev team.

    One day, when all this is behind us, I might document everything that happened. It will fill a book.

    • JordyCA
      8 months ago JordyCA

      I think you are doing a great job and really appreciate what you and your team have accomplished for LTC.

      Thanks

    • 181Dutchy
      8 months ago 181Dutchy

      Essentially it’s your work we all benefit from Charlie and you as a CEO certainly don’t need to be spending precious time babysitting backseat drivers that have an opinion on what you should or shouldn’t do, as you said what is in the public knowledge base is small percentages of what is really happening.

      Thankyou for your efforts and your dedication. Miners, exchanges, wallet development, system improvements, employees, R&D and physical assets are things not many think about when posting on reddit. You Are So Funny

    • zetsyuk
      8 months ago zetsyuk

      i know you work hard, charlie. i appreciate it so much. this isn’t even just about litecoin. it’s about bitcoin, too. you definitely will be writing a book someday.

    • TheFreemanLIVES
      8 months ago TheFreemanLIVES

      +1

      Keep on keepin on, and best of luck with the roundtable. It will be a huge success if we get a consensus driven approach.

    • michwill
      8 months ago michwill

      Wow. You guys serve a good example for Bitcoin community!

    • -AirMane-
      8 months ago -AirMane-

      You know there might be a movie about this when we’re older never thought about that til now. I think people aren’t understanding where the miners are coming from, what the reason is they don’t signal SW because LTC doesn’t have a blocksize on-chain scaling problem? Haven’t heard from their side why.

    • Gristledorf
      8 months ago Gristledorf

      If it’s any consolation, most of us (at least me and most I know) know that all the people slinging mud at you are full of shit.

      Thank you for the work you do.

    • HighDefinist
      8 months ago HighDefinist

      Thank you very much for your work. And please do write that book 😉

  • reb0rn21
    8 months ago reb0rn21

    @1bitcoineater
    You look as a fudster to me…..

    mix the truth with lies and prove your own agenda, which you sure will not disclose!

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    Regardless if you agree with me or not, calling me a fudstar is one of the biggest problem with this sub. Look at my history, how much of it is fud?

    Is this FUD to you? https://www.reddit.com/r/litecoin/comments/63drtj/why_litecoin_is_a_buy_right_now/

    All we have is an echo chamber due to “fud” calling.

  • reb0rn21
    8 months ago reb0rn21

    You put a bunch of separate events and put a conclusion on it… speculating

    If you have your own agenda or just you think as that, I can`t know

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    That was one example of many “non fud”. You are speculating and once again, coming up with bullshit conspiracies like everyone else when anything is negative. For all I know, you think I am trying to get the price low because I am shorting or to buy cheap coins, or I work for Jihan. Maybe a paid shill?

    The only reason you call me a fudstar is because I don’t follow the echo chamber. UASF, miners suck, die! Praise Charlie. Think for yourselves people. Just because I am not a sheep doesn’t mean I am short.

  • Cryptolution
    8 months ago Cryptolution

    So Chinese Culture gets to dictate the future of cryptocurrencies?

    I really wish there was a workable way to just say “fuck china” and firewall them off from the world. They have been nothing but a nightmare to the crypto scene.

    Cryptocurrencies were created to bypass the state. I dont see the point of pandering to Chinese nationalists when the entire purpose of this system is to bypass nationalists. Fuck them and their culture, which is mostly just an obsession with money anyways. I always thought America was bad until I started to realize how entrenched the chinese are with their obsession of being seen as “successful” or “rich”. Its sickening and its poisoning the well.

  • reb0rn21
    8 months ago reb0rn21

    Yes you are BU fudster…

    I see litecoin being great with segwit and maybe in time take a big part of bitcoin market!

    And no I don`t see Charlie as god, because I would rather fork LTC go GPU to see those asic manipulators out of litecoin!

    So see me as devil! 🙂

    If you think UASF is bad think of what I have in mind, and be sure if asic miners do more harm I have support for POW change NUKE!

  • 1bitcoineater
    8 months ago 1bitcoineater

    So obvious with your downvotes, kinda sad, can’t have a discussion where we disagree without doing so?

    I never made any opinions on Bitcoin Unlimited or Bitcoin core so I don’t know where you are getting this from. Regardless, trying to discredit me through this instead of actual arguments is pathetic.

    I never said you saw Charlie as a God, neither did I ask you what you would rather see.

  • reb0rn21
    8 months ago reb0rn21

    You just talk and speculate FUD, how can I repply to FUD

    I sad what I stand for, you stance is nowhere, you are here just to spread propaganda bullshit 99% don`t care

    Yeah I am miner too, and I will never attack coin that I mine!!!!!!!!!!! like those asic assholes are doing!

  • jonald_fyookball
    8 months ago jonald_fyookball

    Quote from: franky1 on April 20, 2017, 02:25:59 PM

    Quote from: Lauda on April 20, 2017, 01:09:10 PM
    1) You can’t know what I’ve read or what I haven’t read.2) Your completely intentional or unintentional misunderstanding of Segwit shows that either:   2.1) You haven’t read either one.   2.2) You have read it, but you don’t understand it.

    1. you have admitted you cant read C++, you ave admitted you cant read walls of text2.1. i have quote code, i have quoted documentation. i have even shown examples of simple tweaks that could be considered as something more of the community could unite around2.2 i have actually told you about the emphasis of the key utility and not the activation itself being the important part of segwits half gesture.and all you can do is pleaded ignorant for a couple months then suddenly find a script that admits what have have said, but with subtle word twists.such as how its a ‘opt-in’.but your still not getting the point. its not a network fix. its not a consensus implementation. its a back door half gesture with only if’s buts and maybe’syet the actual network effect is negative (the tier network)atleast get passed the word twisting from your groupy mindset of blockstream adoration.. as thats temporary. just like segwits half baked gestures are temporary..try to think with a critical hat and not a utopian sales pitch hat.your only argument its to literally fail at describing segwit and to also fail at pidgeon holing me. think about bitcoins 120+year and not blockstreams couple year ‘experiment’

    I’m amazed you still have the patience to respond to this troll.  Lauda  loves to argue technical points, and when an argument is refuted, he just pivots his argument to a different point.He’s a successful troll because he’s been able to use this tactic over and over while being so wrong and arrogant than he baits you into further respondingto nonsense.

  • hl5460
    8 months ago hl5460

    Quote from: cellard on April 20, 2017, 02:46:55 PM

    You are missing the big picture. Litecoin is different to the rest of coins.1) It’s the longest surviving blockchain (except bitcoin). This makes investors have way more confidence when taking big risks. A coin that could be unlisted from an exchange (like the rest of coins you mentioned) aren’t attractive for the long term. But we all know that LTC will be here for life on the big exchanges.2) It’s basically a bitcoin clone, which is perfect to port code from BTC to LTC. It becomes the ideal way to test segwit in a real scenario. Lightning Network developers will move there, increasing the marketcap several times. We’ll see an all time high on LTC, im not sure when, but we will eventually, that im sure of.

    LTC is going to overtake BTC if segwit implemented?

Please sign in first